YaKa
Short

Bitcoin - Well built Scam?

BITSTAMP:BTCUSD   Bitcoin / Dollar
2071 82 22

Short stop 230... after that it may be free fall.

there is no fundamental.. Only hope... and hope is the worst thing for an asset...

Related Ideas

july77
2 years ago
Hi, you mean short Now, or short if reaches 230 ?
Cheers
+1 Reply
YaKa PRO
2 years ago
I.E. Short if below 230...

Let's give a chance to the price going higher if it holds above..

It went from 13 to 248 in 3 months early in 2013... The reverse of that is technically possible if below 230... and maybe fundamentally justified... I am not sure but the reaction I get or what I read is FAR from convincing.

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ShortThePlanet YaKa
2 years ago
Bitcoin fans right now: http://www.road2ironman.com/storage/2013-races/6-escape-to-miami/meme2.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1380823008555
+2 Reply
MarvinMartian ShortThePlanet
2 years ago
http://i.imgur.com/fjxq5J5.jpg
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CrazyC
2 years ago
short if below 230? short now and short later just short
+2 Reply
YaKa PRO CrazyC
2 years ago
Are there put options on Bitcoins?
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K155MY4R53 YaKa
2 years ago
OKCoin futures, my man, where have you been?
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YaKa PRO K155MY4R53
2 years ago
Definitely not on the bitcoin market and possibly for good reasons...
Amazed by the passion... if real: 10,000 if fake 1.00
-1 Reply
moy.hon YaKa
2 years ago
I'll be waiting to buy in at 1 dollar
-3 Reply
Patladj. moy.hon
2 years ago
I'm a bear since Dec 2013. I am accumulating short positiions on several market makers which allows me to that. I'm doing it since Dec 2013. But MAN.... listen to me: It will not reach price that low ($1 ). My projection for BTCUSD bottom is $10.
I beleive it will reach there in short burst of pannic selling. Then it will recover to $70 - $100 and will remain trading in that range for unforseen future. $70-$100 is Bitcoin's fair value according to its practical usage capitalization. If you want to be objective and fair bear :), you don't want to overlook that fact.

Btw, if anyone interested in my projections, I also project EURUSD reaching 0.98 in months. Silver to $9, Gold to $800, Oil to around $35. DXY to 113. That will be the end or at least "a pause" of the dollar strength which according to me is STILL in its early stages. Personally I plan to buy Silver at $9 as it will be heavily undervalued there. I do not beleive in the dollar. I am political libertarian, it's just that now the sutuation is favourable for the dollar. Ultimately the dollar is doomed like all other fiat currencies. I also do not beleive in crypto currency which is not backed by Gold or something else which is well enough managable tangible and auditable.
+4 Reply
YaKa PRO Patladj.
2 years ago
Hi Patladj, please post your projections on all the underlying you mention.. it will be interesting to follow you. Thank you.
+1 Reply
QuantitativeExhaustion PRO Patladj.
2 years ago
How about the argument that US Dollar is backed by something, the energy markets? PetroDollar is real. Every central bank in the world has to own dollars in order to trade energy. There is also the PetroPound. Two world energy markets , NYMEX and Brent.
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MoonTrader
2 years ago
I know there are some people who may seem like they don't like criticism, but that's because there are a lot of people who are so passionate about the technology and sometimes they let it take hold of them. I don't hold it against them, but I also don't do that kind of thing. For every promoter, there's a rational analyst, and for some reason, you seem to be attracting the former.
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YaKa PRO MoonTrader
2 years ago
SOME REASON... YEAH RIGHT.
-2 Reply
YaKa PRO MoonTrader
2 years ago
I am open to an upside move.... show me strength from above 240 and I will respect it but people who think that price will move their way if people agree with their opinion are just WRONG... The price path does not care what we think. I could be wrong and I am open to any rational... What I have been exposed to over a few Bitcoin posts is not supportive.
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vortexspaces YaKa
2 years ago
No strength, all bulls are bears and waiting till Feds sale the last portion of silk btc))) We are heading straight to the core. In my opinion it is only beginning of negative zone (since 600), also btc needs to discover where the real support is.
+3 Reply
YaKa PRO
2 years ago
Let me be objective: if above 390, the bitcoin believers win.
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MoonTrader
2 years ago
If bitcoin is a scam, how did the makers know it was going to be successful? A scam requires that the scammer knows what's going to happen. Instead, people started using it of their own free will.
+2 Reply
LastBattle
2 years ago
lol. this is the exact kind of despair we need to call the bottom.
Now that so many of such charts are appearing already.
+5 Reply
MoonTrader LastBattle
2 years ago
Agreed. From a technical perspective, this is good news. It's kind of funny to watch this happen every time BTC reaches a new bottom.
+4 Reply
StudMuffin
2 years ago
Sell all your coinzez to me now! Bitcoinz iz going to $10. Itz a scamz.
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YaKa PRO
2 years ago
Gents,

So far the price is supported.

I expressed a conditional scenario (condition being bitcoin trading below 230).

What I think about it is irrelevant.

I wish all the people who invested in bitcoin a lot of success.

As per me: not long, not short... There are enough instruments out there to play with.

Intellectually: i would be surprised if it crashes... I would be amazed if it marks new highs.. Geniunly.

Let's leave it there and let the price tell us.

Good luck either way.

+3 Reply
YaKa PRO YaKa
2 years ago
Errata: "would not be surprised"
-2 Reply
neilstansbury PRO YaKa
2 years ago
Yacine even basic fundamentals support your idea, the Dollar is in a multi-year rally and that's bad for any dollar denominated asset, but if a flight to safety really takes off I very much doubt that'll include BTC. AFAIKT to be long BTC you need to be short USD - and you have to be on illegal substances to take that position!
+2 Reply
LastBattle neilstansbury
2 years ago
snapshot


In dollars? No. The majority of Bitcoin volume is in fact coming from Chinese Yuan.
+4 Reply
neilstansbury PRO LastBattle
2 years ago
It doesn't make any difference where the volume comes from - this is a USD pair and unless the BTCUSD market can magically avoid arbitrage - the USD price/volume will pressure it lower.
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YaKa PRO neilstansbury
2 years ago
To be honnest.. when something is able to move 10,000% up, it does not matter which currency it is denominated in...
the 10% swing in currencies will not affect the price... If the enthusiasm is high, it heads to 2000... If there is a slide, it can be huge even if eurusd goes back to 1.2800
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neilstansbury PRO YaKa
2 years ago
Yep I totally agree, but only to an extent - BTC is much more wildly traded now, the width and liquidity of the market is so much greater than it was during the run up. There are more pros playing this field now, and you can bet they'll use currency swaps to take some easy money if the arbitrage opportunity is there. IMO if BTC is becoming a "real" currency it'll be exposed to more of the same pressures...
+1 Reply
Wolf
2 years ago
This is going to be fun.
+1 Reply
ChartArt
2 years ago
If it would have been possible to trade "Email" (electronic mail) as technology since the invention in the year 1971 or the "WWW" (World Wide Web) since the invention in the year 1989 I guess these technologies would have been overvalued as well in the first years. Unless you don't treat Bitcoin (programmable money) as a breakthrough technology like Email or the Web you can't comprehend why the price increased so much since the release in 2009 after the invention of Bitcoin in 2008. Just because the price was going up so much doesn't mean it's a scam.

Here is the original explanation of Bitcoin when it was released in 2009. Please take the 5 minutes to read at least that:
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source

Bitcoin has a viral growth part build in by getting more scarce over the next decades in order to increase in value in order to increase adoption. That's another factor which might look like a scam to average people who didn't do any research, but it's only a clever way to make sure that a open source decentralized technology is being maintained over a very long time.

Here is an excerpt:
"I've developed a new open source P2P e-cash system called Bitcoin. (...) The result is a distributed system with no single point of failure." (...) "it's more typical of a precious metal. Instead of the supply changing to keep the value the same, the supply is predetermined and the value changes. As the number of users grows, the value per coin increases. It has the potential for a positive feedback loop; as users increase, the value goes up, which could attract more users to take advantage of the increasing value."
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source

----

My most bearish scenarios only go down to $85-$100:
Bitcoin price doom analysis: Why Bitcoin might crash to $85-$110


Ultra Bearish Bitcoin Future Scenario: "The Final Leg Down"



Even if it would take years I don't see Bitcoin going down to $13.98
Bitcoin Price Analysis - Bubbles of the Past and Future


----

Bitcoin is fundamentally not a scam. If you would write that the Apple stock is a scam, you would get a similar negative reaction from people who spend a lot of time understanding Apple. I published a chart two months ago that says that Bitcoin could go down to $85 but I didn't got any hate comments. Why? Because I didn't blindly dismiss Bitcoin as a scam.


+1 Reply
YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
Dear ChartArt. I am far from being the most intelligent in the room but I have been running derivatives structuring at various banks... And in banking, the more complex is the marketing, the more issues are hidden... I know that first hand.
If Bitcoin cant be explain in 4 bullet points that I could understand with simple words... I am not sure what is its benefit.

So please: in 4 bullet simple points. Tell me:
1 - What is the benefit of this new currency?
2 - By what assets is it backed?
3 - Who delivers the currency (we have enough issues with govt printing money) and makes more coins available?
4 - Why should it be so speculative in fluctuations and attract so much greed?
+1 Reply
AKWAnalytics PRO YaKa
2 years ago
Please send me $50,000,000 over the internet in a manner that is 100% confirmed and secured within an hour with ZERO fees and that cannot be frozen, confiscated, or destroyed by ANY entity anywhere on earth. No can do, huh? For that matter, send me $0.05 for this comment over the internet using the legacy banking system or cc co's. Oh, that's right, its impossible to do either of those things without bitcoin. Enough said.
+8 Reply
YaKa PRO AKWAnalytics
2 years ago
Ok AKW. Good angle. Let's start with that... And it was just that, it would be perfect... but at some point to use it you need to go back to a hard currency and that value may have changed.. Positively or negatively theoretically. That is the problem, that is also the reason for the hype... As a matter of fact Bitcoin was mentioned everyday in the mainstream media when it was making new tops... less so now. So part of the problem is the reason for its success.

Ok. I get it that i dont get it.

I also get that you guys are not relaxed about the natural course of things.. otherwise you would not be so intense on the subject.. Trust me: when i am sure of something: i am very happy to see the contrary written or said everywhere...

That is not the case for you guys...

Now, at this stage, the instrument with float of 5bio is not interesting enough to use more of my time or energy...

Let people say what they think.. post your own things on your pages... THE POLEMIC IS NOT NECESSARY. I COULD NOT CARE LESS of the 5bio Bitcoin MARKET
+1 Reply
AlexU YaKa
2 years ago
Bitcoin's most interesting point is the fact that it's a protocol, which means you can program applications on top of that protocol layer. This is not so far away now, and you'll see a lot of different applications, where Bitcoin will not be used as a currency at all, but will be a utilization of the protocol's way of achieving distributed consensus.

"Who delivers the currency (we have enough issues with govt printing money) and makes more coins available? "
Match does.
The fact that most people will have a hard time really understanding how Bitcoin is created, is a bad focus point, most people don't have a clue about how fiat money is generated either.

To your last point, what did you expect in an completely unregulated market?
+1 Reply
Universe YaKa
2 years ago
I wrote this quickly so it might have typos. I'm not trying to convince you to buy bitcoin, but I do want to answer your questions. First of all I recommend using google to search these things up, because by asking for these bullet points it is clear you are taking on a rather strong anti-bitcoin stance without being informed as to what Bitcoin is or how it works. My answers might not be perfect, but I hope I can help.

1: Bitcoin is a protocal that can be built on top of. Decentralized and thus not controlled by any government or company, thus if you are protecting your bitcoins properly they can't be frozen or stolen by anyone. Eventually the internet of things (look it up) could be powered by bitcoin, new kinds of stock markets could be powered by bitcoin, there are all kinds of innovations that have nothing to do with the currency aspect that have people excited, the currency aspect was just the first thing that has been built on the concept. It is also payment system that could make paypal obsolete (paypal originally wanted to make an internet currency but failed), and a scarce currency/commodity that people want because they understand its innovation, and thus price rises.The limited 21 million supply in comparison to human population and trillions of dollars on planet earth means its future value could increase dramatically if it follows a similar path as the computers, the internet, and smartphones all have. All had humble, often problem filled, beginnings before exploding huge into the mainstream.

2: Bitcoin is backed by the the massive network of miners that secures it, not by any traditional asset. Yes this is a new concept, but it doesn't mean it does't work. Effectively this network is now the biggest super computer on the planet, though a specialized one. The internet isn't backed by any old world asset but it has value. If domain names and IPs were originally created via some kind of coin people would have had the same conversation back then. But regardless, domain names were scooped up by people with vision who then sold those domainnames for LOTS of money years later. At the time people were saying the internet was worthless because snail mail existed and worked fine. Same arguments from back then are used today against bitcoin and will likely be wrong.

3: The currency aspect of Bitcoin (only one aspect but it gets lots of attention) is 'delivered' via mining. There are only 21 million bitcoins, but only about 12 million have been accessed and essentially released yet. Think of them like gold underground and miners are digger for that limited gold. Mining is done by ultra powerful computers connected to the Bitcoin network. These computers solve mathmatical cryptography equations and compete with all the other computers on the network to see how can access the Bitcoins first. Essentially it would be like gold miners competing with each other to dig up the last remaining gold on the planet. By 2020 most of the bitcoin will be mined based on the current mining schedule that slightly adjusts based on how powerful the network is at any given time. The 21 million bitcoin limit is hardcoded into the bitcoin code, and it is ensured to remain that way because the system is a massive decentralized super network and not just one easily modified computer. When one misinformed hacker tries to make 40 million new coins for himself, all the other computers on the network just ignore him.

4: The limited supply and low market cap contribute to the fluctionations. But people will speculate anything they think has value or will make them money. There are a lot of very informed and educated people that have the vision to realize just how innovative bitcoin is and thus they want in on the profit. There are also misinformed people that simply want to get rich quick and then jump on board without any of the trading skill or education that others have. Perhaps you have encountered too many of thes
+2 Reply
YaKa PRO Universe
2 years ago
Thank you Universe.

What percentage of your wealth is in bitcoin?
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YaKa PRO YaKa
2 years ago
What allocation would you recommend?
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Universe YaKa
2 years ago
I suppose the classic 'only what you can afford to lose'. At least until you/whoever became more comfortable with the whole concept and was okay with more risk.
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YaKa PRO Universe
2 years ago
You see that last bit is the anti refuge point... In a currency, i should be confortable being 100% allocated... the risk of losing everything in a currency is anti purpose.

At least in USD, you will always be ok in the US...

You got my point.. i got yours.. let's stop here. Thank you.
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Universe YaKa
2 years ago
Well... it is more than a currency though which is something to bare in mind, it is a commodity-currency-protocal-all kinds of things. It is new and doesn't fit old paradigms. Also, I doubt you'd feel safe 100% allocated in Rubles or any number of other currencies, and even USD is considered increasingly weak. Forex markets go up and down for a reasons.
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ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
Bitcoin is extremely speculative. Maybe in a similar league like high-risk Chinese biotech startups.

Therefore I would only recommend to allocate maximum 1% in Bitcoin as long as there is no clear stable bottom holding for months. I currently can't recommend to buy as long as the price is below $340, which is a critical price area for further increases from $350 back to $400 et cetera. Currently many traders expect the price to fall below $300.
+1 Reply
Universe YaKa
2 years ago
Quite a lot to be honest simply because I was fortunate enough to be involved very early. My goal is to start diversifying as time goes on. Unlike some people you have encountered I actually don't go around talking about it all that often, or bothering friends, family, strangers, simply because I'm fairly private. I did educate friends/family on the subject, but leave it up to them if they want to invest. =)
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YaKa PRO Universe
2 years ago
Ok - fair enough. Good Luck Then. I hope it works for you.
-1 Reply
ChartArt Universe
2 years ago
Excellent comment. You addressed many points which I failed to mention in my answer.
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ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
1. What is the benefit of this new currency?

Bitcoin is envisioned as a 100% complete alternative to traditional currencies. Bitcoin is as different to traditional currencies as nuclear fusion is different to coal heating. As soon as you understand Bitcoin you will see that Banks are only "third party middleman". Traditional currencies have "a central bank that must be trusted not to debase the currency" (and "the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust" for example "credit bubbles"). The benefit of Bitcoin is that no central bank can debase the Bitcoin currency, no central trusted third party middleman are needed for Bitcoin to work. Bitcoin is disintermediating banks. They are just not needed. This didn't stop people to create exchanges for Bitcoin that act like banks and failed like banks (for example MtGox), but that is not Bitcoin. Those are external third party projects on top of the Bitcoin technology and should not be confused with the core of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a completely decentralized peer to peer currency. And Bitcoin is programmable. Traditional currencies are not programmable. Bitcoin's Blockchain is a record of ALL Bitcoin transactions which ever took place since the first second of the release of Bitcoin. You can think of the Blockchain as a giant database. A database which is growing in value as longer as it exists. The underlying Blockchain technology can even be used for digital voting and fairer elections, because no one can fake the entries in Bitcoin's blockchain database, because Bitcoin has "no single point of failure". The best hackers tried to hack Bitcoin since years, but they haven't found a way to hack Bitcoin so far, which is again a proof that Bitcoin has "no single point of failure". The benefit of Bitcoin is that it represents a new way beyond the many century old thinking of centralization. The benefit of Bitcoin is de-centralization. Using Bitcoin everything money touches can be de-centralized without the prior approval of banks or governments. Bitcoin works without banks or governments. Using Bitcoin banks or governments are just an overhead which is interfering with the core idea. That is why anarchists and libertarians love Bitcoin so much. Bitcoin is a peer to peer technology which is giving money directly in the hands of people and that is the benefit of Bitcoin. It's the most democratic currency ever invented.

2. By what assets is it backed?
Cryptography, backed by electric energy to compute it.

3. Who delivers the currency and makes more coins available?
Bitcoin has de-inflation. Meaning the inflation of new coins is decreasing over time. The de-inflation of Bitcoins is coded into the Bitcoin technology and unless the majority of Bitcoin users switches to a possible new version (a hard-fork) the de-inflation can be calculated until the year 2140, which is the year when no new Bitcoins will be made available any more. "The last block that will generate coins will be block #6,929,999 which should be generated at or near the year 2140. The total number of coins in circulation will then remain static at 20,999,999.9769 BTC" (source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ). The year 2140 is far away therefore you can see that Bitcoin was not invented as a quick get rich scheme, but as a entirely new idea to replace traditional currencies. New coins get into the market as part of a process callled 'mining', which is essentially a way to reward the users who are securing the Bitcoin network with their computation power (the 'miners') for doing so. Bitcoin inflation over time: http://www.mattwhitlock.com/Bitcoin%20Inflation%20logarithmic.png

4. Why should it be so speculative in fluctuations and attract so much greed?
Bitcoin is traded non-stop 24/7/365. Which makes Bitcoin even more tradeable than Forex which is only traded from Monday to Friday. Bitcoin can attract greed, because it represents a long-term investment for decades. Besides the benefits I mentioned at 1. I didn't mentioned so far that Bitcoin is making micropayments possible for the first time, because there are no banks or other middleman ripping of Bitcoin users with fees. Micropayments can spark entire new economies never seen before. Bitcoin represents a way to offer small rewards for performing small amounts of work. For example Google could integrate Bitcoin and reward users for reporting spam. The reward could be very tiny, so tiny that no traditional payment system could handle them. Only Bitcoin can handle micropayments. Another example for micropayments is the Internet of Things and machine to machine automation (M2M). IBM is going to demonstrate at the CES 2015 in January 2015 how Bitcoin can be used that machines pay each other for solving tasks. And for example the smaller Atmel Corporation ($ATML) is also working in this field: http://blog.atmel.com/2014/12/15/bringing-bitcoin-based-micropayments-to-the-internet-of-things/. Using Bitcoin for micropayments and the Internet of Things is just one idea of many. Bitcoin is just starting to grow in terms of actual applications of the technology. Bitcoin is like the Web in 1993 or 1994. All the major startups like Facebook or Amazon or Google have not been invented, yet. Bitcoin is still a futuristic technology with the first released app being a currency which many people easily dismiss as a scam. Which means there are still a lot of people and companies who could invest in Bitcoin over the next decades when understanding and acceptance of Bitcoin grows.

Quotes are from: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source
+2 Reply
YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
Question: why are you so keen to promote it. Do you have vested interests?
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ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
I currently don't hold Bitcoin. And I'm currently not long on Bitcoin.
+1 Reply
YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
so: are you paid by the bitcoin organisation as a promoter? I guess you would not tell me.
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ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
No, I'm not paid to comment here.

I'm only a big believer in the future potential of the technology. And you are one of the few people here on Tradingview who publish Bitcoin charts without being a Bitcoin user/fan, which is a welcome opportunity to clarify some of the doubts raised against Bitcoin.

Since many people might find your chart here (being so extremely bearish), it's going to get interesting in a few months who was "right" if Bitcoin is a bursting bubble scam or only consolidating the next weeks.
+2 Reply
LastBattle YaKa
2 years ago
Are you paid by MasterCard™?
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YaKa PRO LastBattle
2 years ago
I am paid by bitcoin so people like you can jump on their horse
-1 Reply
YaKa PRO YaKa
2 years ago
:)
-1 Reply
LastBattle YaKa
2 years ago
meh... enjoy living in denial if you don't even bother reading up.
I await the day where you start to trade your fiat away.
+1 Reply
YaKa PRO LastBattle
2 years ago
Lastbattle, you are eroding yourself for no reason... I dont need to educate myself on bitcoins... The day it will be so popular as to pay anything with it, I am sure I will have joined passively without noticing...

I am sure Land and real estate are safer bets or at least more stable bets than bitcoins.
-1 Reply
LudmilaHanania YaKa
2 years ago
Totally agree. I am in gold coins, russian palladium coins , bank account in NOK , real estate in Norway and Israel. I do not believe in the USD or EUR , these are my long term safety holdings. No bitcoin or stocks for me.
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ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
I dismissed Bitcoin as not interesting in early 2011 when the price was at $7. Back then in 2011 I found charts that Bitcoin was trading in 2010 at $0.10 and concluded that Bitcoin is overvalued. I was wrong. Later in 2013 at the peak of the bubble some bank analysts have calculated a possible value of Bitcoin at $1300*, which means Bitcoin could be undervalued at $300 at the end of 2014. The price could also fall back down to $100, trade sideways for two years and go back up three years later to $1300. Who knows. But Bitcoin is not a scam, that is what I can't or read hear anymore now that I took the time trying to understand the potential of Bitcoin. I just like to promote good ideas and Bitcoin is one of them.

"Currency analysts for Bank of America, Merrill Lynch have begun to cover Bitcoin and issued a comprehensive first report. Assessing its combined worth as a store of value (like gold or silver), payment rail (like Western Union or MoneyGram) and as a medium of exchange to, say, conduct online shopping, the analysts set its maximum market capitalization at $15 billion, meaning one Bitcoin, given the current supply, would have a fair market value of $1,300 USD." *

* http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/12/05/bank-of-america-analysts-say-bitcoins-value-is-1300/

And I'm aware of network effects like the lock-in effect and “Winner Takes All” markets in network economies. Bitcoin is already the winner against all later released similar technologies (altcoins) in terms of market value.
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YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
we are here to promote trade ideas.. and trade ideas are sometimes backed by opinions.. You need to accept that...
In any apple transaction: there is a guy who thinks that apple wont be able to renew blockbusters for the next 15years and there is a guy thinking that all cars will be equiped with apple touch screens with sensors and so on....

You are not here to defend a concept... Defend your trade and say you believe in it.. that will be enough.
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YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
Otherwise, why would you care so much? BTW: thank you for trying to explain in simpler terms.
-1 Reply
ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
I don't care if you buy or sell Bitcoin or if you think Bitcoin goes down to $14.

My goal is only to get you interested enough in Bitcoin that you maybe in 2017 read a book about Bitcoin and then finally stop calling it a scam.
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YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
Ok - I will let you know when that happens.
Question: who will make money when the reminder of the coins available are placed in the system?
Who sold to coins initially.. Someone must have had some coins to give and then some more at a higher price to the new comers etc...
How did that process work exactly?
-1 Reply
ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
Question: who will make money when the reminder of the coins available are placed in the system?

The miners will keep on making money even if all Bitcoins are mined in 2140 or earlier. Because miners also get rewarded for processing blocks of Bitcoin transactions* not only with new Bitcoins, but also with a tiny fee which users pay when they want to send Bitcoins with more processing safety. "The typical transaction fee for low-priority transactions is 0.1 mBTC (0.0001 BTC), regardless of the number of bitcoins sent." (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees)

* http://www.coindesk.com/blockchain-lottery-miners-rewarded/
+2 Reply
ChartArt ChartArt
2 years ago
Question: who will make money when the reminder of the coins available are placed in the system?

And the Bitcoin payment providers like Bitpay, Coinbase, Bitnet will keep on making money. Bitnet is the newest competitor in this space.*

"The executives at Bitnet worked formerly at Visa, and many were also previously involved in a company called Cybersource, which was purchased by Visa for $2 billion to handle its online payment infrastructure."
* http://www.coindesk.com/bitnet-lands-14-5-million-series-funding-rival-coinbase-bitpay/
+2 Reply
YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
ChartArt - Comments on your post

A - You cant say "the maximum correction is to 100"... honnestly after something falls 90%... a little bit more, a little bit less... difficult to say

B - are you comparing bitcoin to an iphone? Iphone need zero pitch... the pitch is simple: people love their phone... there is hardly any marketing for apple.. people just go to the store on release.. Have you ever seen an add on tv for apple?

I have no clue what the price will do, I just dont get what bitcoin solves.. definitely not volatility
-1 Reply
ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
Bitcoin solved the double spending problem of digital currencies with no central point of trust. You can make a perfect digital copy of a audio CD and then make a million more perfect digital copies of that CD and every copy will be as perfect as the first version. Or you could copy movie DVDs with no end. Hollywood and the music industry learned the hard way what perfect digital copies mean to their business.

Bitcoin solved the problem of unauthorized perfect digital copies for the first time in history. If it would be possible to fake Bitcoin then Bitcoin would be worthless, because Bitcoin is digital money and if you could make millions of fake Bitcoins then the value of Bitcoin would go to zero. But it's not possible to fake Bitcoin because of the underlying smart very complex Blockchain invention. And this technology could be used in other applications that digital money that are layered on top of Bitcoin. One project are "sidechains". The Blockstream startup recently raised $21 million from Reid Hoffman (co-founder of LinkedIn), Khosla Ventures, and a pile of other impressive investors like Google Eric Schmidt’s Innovation Endeavors and Jerry Yang (co-founder of Yahoo!) AME Cloud Ventures for a sidechain project: http://www.blockstream.com/2014/11/17/blockstream-closes-21m-seed-round/
+2 Reply
YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
ChartArt,

Not everybody is Stupid. A pitch starting by a threat is really starting on the wrong foot... "Let me show you what the bad central banks are doing so I can sell you something that will enable me to do the same thing than them but at a huge profit to me"... Come on..
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ChartArt YaKa
2 years ago
Where did I say "enable me to do the same thing". The point of Bitcoin is not do the same thing. But since Bitcoin is innovation without permission everyone can try to do the same scams that exist in traditional currencies. But those will be sorted out the more the Bitcoin technology matures.
+1 Reply
YaKa PRO ChartArt
2 years ago
I am not challenging the fact that the guys who created it are ultra smart... They almost created a religion. With its own code/language etc... Super smart. Bravo. But i dont get it... And to compare to the Iphone: it might be super complex within but what it does is simple and even 3y old kids play with it.
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MoonTrader YaKa
2 years ago
Maybe we should just let our TA do the talking and we'll find out who's right and who's wrong by their charting forecasts.
No? Too simple? Ok, just keep arguing about it.
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YaKa PRO MoonTrader
2 years ago
AGREE 100%.. Who cares..
+1 Reply
Universe YaKa
2 years ago
The community and companies involved in Bitcoin are trying to get it to that iPhone simple stage. It isn't there yet, but it is closer than it was years ago. The thing is as I mentioned above in my longer post is that it is a protocal that can be built on top of, which companies like Blockstream, Counterparty, and others are starting to do right now. TCP/IP was the internet protocal, but HTTP was built on top and thus we got easy to use browsers and email.
+1 Reply
ChartArt Universe
2 years ago
Very well said. I can't agree more.

The hard part of understanding Bitcoin is to first understand the potential of the technology, which is difficult when you don't understand the value of existing breakthrough technology ideas like TCP/IP which are meaningless to the mainstream, but which have tremendous importance today.

To value Bitcoin is similar as difficult as putting a value to the Email technology which is used by 2.5 billion people worldwide today. It took some time from 1971 for Email to get to from zero to widespread adoption in 2014. With Bitcoin there can be programmed much more powerful applications than with Email...
+1 Reply
Patladj. ChartArt
2 years ago
I will only oppose to you on that statements:

""Email" (electronic mail) as technology since the invention in the year 1971 or the "WWW" (World Wide Web)"

"you can't comprehend why the price increased so much since the release in 2009 after the invention of Bitcoin in 2008. Just because the price was going up so much doesn't mean it's a scam. "

......
I dissagree simply because E-mail and WWW are not money. It is not something that is exchangeable. You can buy and sell multiple websites, yes, but you cannot cash out on the protocol itself. Websites theirselves which are exchangeable has not been known to be addopted to status of *forever* and never fear of losing their value. So website are subjective to fear and greed, but the protocol itself (WWW) - NOT! More than 98% of people who buy BTC do it to profit from its appreciation and when they do not profit anymore or lose they will sell. You cannot do this with a protocol, you adopt it because it serves you a practical purpose and you cannot sell it to cash out on it.

Exactly this ability to directly cash out BTC will be the reasons for its demise. The fear factor. And the greed factor.

If you are a libertarian - accept it as that is the natural way of the market mitigating unfairness (those who bought at $1 being immoral to have the wealth power over the others who bought it let's say at $10,000). The market (fear and greed) will not allow adoption of a "no value" currency to a full blown world reserve money with a permanent status. There simply will be a sequence of bubble pops in every such new currency which claims that status, and ultimate death of it, resulting in totally discrediting of the non-backed crypto currencies in some non-distant future.
+1 Reply
ChartArt Patladj.
2 years ago
My point is that Bitcoin is more than money. I wasn't interested in 2011 in Bitcoin, because I thought Bitcoin is only about digital money. The blockchain can not be separated from Bitcoin - the digital money. Either both exist or both fail.

So far only the digital money is decreasing in value against other traditional currencies, while there are more and more VC funded blockchain startup projects like for example Blockstream. Which means to me that as long as the blockchain does not fail there is a growing potential of Bitcoin - the digital money - to increase in value again, as soon as more and more Bitcoin blockchain startups release their Bitcoin apps in 2015-2017, which make Bitcoin more interesting to the mainstream.

P.S. Sadly there is also a Bitcoin startup company named "Blockchain" which is not to be confused with 'the blockchain' from Bitcoin.
+2 Reply
StudMuffin Patladj.
2 years ago
Bitcoin isn't just money.
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drei4u
2 years ago
Bitcoin price will go under its original trend
Too bearish
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YaKa PRO drei4u
2 years ago
what is clear: from a price perspective we are on a pivot.
Whether it is bitcoin of gold or cashew nuts, then you need to understand the psychology of the market and try to understand what people are doing.

This chat told me one thing: I dont see new buyers.. I see people already long who are hoping and supporting their market.

The risk is: beyond the pivot, if the price accelerate down, many of those may liquidate.

That is all well beyond the true benefit or not of Bitcoin... Just price dynamics and psychology.
+1 Reply
YaKa PRO drei4u
2 years ago
Simple maths:
Let s say you were an aware visionary person in 2012 and invested 5,000 usd in bitcoin in case...
At the top you had: 2,500,000 USD.. not bad
Now you have 750,000 usd... it still feels good... at 500,000 you may say... ok hold on: let me get that out
If it is a bubble, that is how it ends.
+1 Reply
IvanLabrie TOP YaKa
2 years ago
+1...I expect it to accelerate, we haven't seen true capitulation.
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YaKa PRO
2 years ago
OK

BEFORE - I DID NOT GET IT

NOW - I UNDERSTAND IT A BIT BETTER BUT I DONT BUY INTO IT

I WOULD NOT SHORT IT AS IT IS ABOVE PIVOT BUT WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF IT FALLS HARD - GOLD DID FALL THROUGH 1500.. BITCOIN NO DOUBT COULD FALL.
-1 Reply
Wolf
2 years ago
I am a true enthusiast of technology and also of business. I really LOVE bitcoin, its future is awesome and has a lot of potential, but the trading price behavior is another story, which is pretty much controlled by greed.

Random people who I had never heard before of them getting involved in trading, are now talking how they are geniuses in the stock market and ask them what they trade, and they tell me "bitcoin, the new revolutionary thing". Just watch some users here in TradingView, all they have is "BTC/USD" on their ideas.

I know bitcoin since 2012, and it seemed good, with potential, the price I always thought it was kinda undervalued but not for going over 1000 in just a couple of months.

When I saw the big spike, I literally watched it almost all.

And what I saw?
Just a bunch of big boys with big pockets(not necessarily enthusiasts of bitcoin) + those who rode them to a very high price, before selling it all and become rich. And of course, the month it lasted to rally, the same month it lasted to sell it off by around 2/3 of the price. Typical ponzi scheme. I remember the people were so enthusiastic, many said it was going to 2000 and that 1000 was cheap, and you would regret for not buying.

However, I DON'T see bitcoin as a ponzi scheme. I just remark the price action, who people with big pockets took advantage of the perfect "revolutionary story" to make money.

At the end, it's the big boys mostly who move the money with this and have the power to make a significant move enough for the market to psychologically take an impulse.

I don't see bitcoin dead, it's in fact, a very revolutionary protocol to put our money safe, it won't die. I just don't see it realistically reflected on a price line, it's unstable, and it needs to consolidate to a safer price.

Is it going to get over 1000 again?
I don't know. It can or it cannot. I see the price based on pure psychological decisions caused by some triggered support and resistance lines on a logarithmic perspective. I won't speculate based on fundamentals of the revolutionary new currency, just confirm it with patterns and price action that is affected by the psychological decisions of people.

But I do have a question. Are people really that enthusiastic again for another move to 1000 once big boys decide to bet for it on a bullish support bounce? It's like successful series movies, the first of the series is usually the best, but they don't get the same "joy" the next ones. But you know, in bitcoin, big investors might see the resistance line of 1000 very tempting to try to take more juice.

Just my thoughts. Don't take it personal, and as always, keep it safe.
+4 Reply
Alex T.
2 years ago
LOL
Reply
jangseohee
2 years ago
BTCUSD, double support to be tested
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